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Post by Crystos on Jun 5, 2015 0:42:59 GMT -8
OK, here's a new game for us to play. Post a screen shot of your top monsters and let us guess what your current Arena defense is. (This will potentially be good for you). Here is mine:  I used Imagur to post the image: imgur.com
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Post by hazelthorn on Jun 5, 2015 6:13:11 GMT -8
Veromos (L)/Megan/Briand/Lushen Pretty sure I'm 100% wrong  |
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Post by solomunkane on Jun 5, 2015 12:39:21 GMT -8
Vero, Tryon, Briand, Megan  |
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Post by solomunkane on Jun 5, 2015 12:41:30 GMT -8
Heres mine  |
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Post by Crystos on Jun 5, 2015 14:55:35 GMT -8
I'm guessing Baretta (L), Soha, Vero, Bella |
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Post by Crystos on Jun 5, 2015 15:00:11 GMT -8
Veromos (L)/Megan/Briand/Lushen) Vero, Tryon, Briand, Megan You guys are probably thinking I have a speed Megan. I don't.  Veromos and Briand are correct. |
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Post by vakhir on Jun 5, 2015 19:19:52 GMT -8
I'm not going to cheat and check how your Tyron is runed.
If he was DPS, Vero (L) / Briand / Bella / Tyron would be possible, but so vulnerable to Lushen/Kat bombs.
I'm thinking Vero (L) / Briand / Bella / Verdehile. Depends on Verde is runed. Possible Julien in Verde's place, but same thing about the squish. A lot more kill potential if he got an opening after Bella broke something.
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Post by solomunkane on Jun 5, 2015 20:01:06 GMT -8
I'm guessing Baretta (L), Soha, Vero, Bella Haha yeah. Pretty much. |
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Post by Crystos on Jun 8, 2015 8:28:26 GMT -8
I'm not going to cheat and check how your Tyron is runed. If he was DPS, Vero (L) / Briand / Bella / Tyron would be possible, but so vulnerable to Lushen/Kat bombs. I'm thinking Vero (L) / Briand / Bella / Verdehile. Depends on Verde is runed. Possible Julien in Verde's place, but same thing about the squish. A lot more kill potential if he got an opening after Bella broke something. , and the fourth mystery member was Konamiya. I know that lineup has very little kill power. But I thought Kona might draw in some people who were looking for an easy victory. And it worked, to an extent. When I was putting in a DD at #4, attackers came at me with a lineup designed to counter that DD. The result was a lot of losses. When I put in Kona, I had fewer attacks and the same number of wins so the overall result was better. One guy lost to me twice. I've really enjoyed using Konamiya since I 6ed him. He is runed fast violent/def after the rune removal event. I'll be switching out def for focus, resist or maybe even Will when the opportunity arises. People say Konamiya's AI is bad. But it's not terrible. And whatever the AI chooses it's always something good: buff/ATB, cleanse/heal, or attack/stun. In short, he makes the whole lineup stronger, faster and less squishy. And, paired with Veros, the attacker just isn't going to be able to get any negative effects on the team to stick. Still, he is not ideal. Tyron and Verdehile are often in my defense. And the fact is, I can't seem to put together a defense strong enough to lift me into the Conqueror level. |
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Post by vakhir on Jun 8, 2015 19:39:10 GMT -8
I'm not sure if I can hold Conq 2, but I can stay in Conq 1 very easily. My AD is one of my AOs, I choose from 4 of these 5 - Tyron / Vero / Chasun / Lushen / Hwa, and my AO only really changes besides those 5 if I need to put in Bernard to outspeed, and that's only when Lushening against a Megan or Bernard. My AD last week, IIRC, was the full DPS and Vero wasn't in the group. I often shift him into the offense in place of the DPS that wouldn't synergize well (Tyron against a full wind team, since I use him for CC, or Hwa against largely water, or Lushen with teams with a ton of fire DPS). The most effective swap is Tyron(L)/Vero/Chasun/Hwa against fire heavy teams, but I wouldn't get as many wins on AD as I would with Lushen. I think people don't realize yet, at that level, that Chasun prebuffs a lot. She very often - thanks, AI! - will atk buff which means my Lushen is doing 6k x3 to the non-fire mons unless a team brought Chloe, but in lower Conq, not everyone has Chloe, and there's a chance - I wish I had more spd - my Tyron could win against a crappy Chloe and freeze unless they brought will runes.
I don't care as much about my win rate as my attack mitigation. People don't want to lose during the last couple hours, and it's hard to know what to expect from my DPS. One gank and you might be in trouble. They'd prefer a controlled fight against a "tankier" team. Tanky is in quotes because you need strong mons and strong runes for the tanky teams to also be scary. Tanky teams without stronger threats let you bring very zergy comps - I usually am using 3 dps plus Chasun - and they really don't take long. If I'm not using crystals on wings, which is rare until Guardian, then I don't care if a win takes 30 seconds or 2 minutes, so slightly slower wins don't bother me. Almost always, I can swap my group around and make it almost impossible to die, like Chasun + Vero double tanking a fire DPS and a light mon with break. If it's a healer/support-heavy team, then I'm just playing 'til I win.
FWIW, I would attack you in a heartbeat. You don't have any kill, I would be so not-at-all-scared, and it isn't tanky enough to take forever. Kona's AI actually is scarier to me if there's a DPS that he's BARELY slower than. His AI will always grant a turn to the lowest attack bar, so if you had a scary DPS, especially with RNG potential like Hwa on violent or Tyron on violent, then you would attack, potentially spamming attacks and violents, then Kona would turn grant them if his AI didn't think cleansing was important, and then they'll do it again.
Until you have very strong bruisers to complement Briand's rez and Bella's break, I don't think they're worth it. Bella's break doesn't matter if nothing there is scary even with break. The closest is Vero under violent procs, but that's more "the mon is already at half or less while broken," but he's your biggest threat. People can out-speed and out-damage you, sure, but I feel like people don't like gambling. I don't get attacked that often, even in deeper Conq 1, like 5kish. I farm glory during the week, like 99%+ win rates, so it's a bit of a slog to go all the way up past 10k and then keep going to 3k unless I started earlier. I might start soonish, but the reward isn't quite enough to me compared to more glory. Once you're in Conq you don't know if the person is Conq level or doing what I do in F3 and actually Guardian level farming in Conq. It's more a case of the mons are the same and runes are different, and there are traps too.
This is assuming strong runes, and I don't have time right now to snoop properly, but if you did Tyron / Verde / Lushen / undecided, I'd be a bit nervous attacking because I wouldn't know how berserk your mons would get. 4th mon is undecided, an atk buff or def break would be ideal. PERFECT would be the water pirate, who I was fortunate enough to snag with a shop scroll. Atk buff and enemy def break. Basically need a fast immunity or even invincibility to feel safe attacking, and this is Conq, not Guardian. People have narrower toolkits. I would prefer an AE break to a ST like Bella's for this, or a group atk buff. Sieq would synergize well, built for enough speed to outspeed Lushen, but not worth outspeeding Tyron/Verde. They'll turnlap themselves pretty easily, Tyron may or may not beat Verde. I think ideal is very fast Tyron slightly outspeeding Verde, then Verde goes, buffing Tyron already and catching up Sieq/Lushen. Sure, the team would be squishy (whether or not Tyron and Verde had single HP runes), but it's a potential threat. Would work with a tankier ToA-runed Tyron, too, like mine. Mine hits for nothing.
You'll still probably need to be ranking up some on the last day. Holding if you can't attack a bit during the last hour leaves it up to fate. That being said, I had 8 wings I didn't have to use because I didn't fall below maybe 6 or 7k without attacking a lot during the final hours. Zergier ADs work just fine for low Conq IMO.
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Post by Crystos on Jun 8, 2015 23:40:16 GMT -8
Thanks for that analysis, Vakhir. I value it greatly. I'm having a hard time turning this jumble of monsters into a good AD. My Verdehile is a little stronger than average. But also squishier. My reason for giving him a +50% attack rune in slot 6 is that he will recover some of that damage as HP. He has 13K HP, 1466 ATK and 183 SPD. His crit is 92 (will be 100 soon) and his CrD is 77%.
Your suggestion of Tyron, Verde, Lushen is good. I haven't used it because I always heard Lushen was poor on defense. Verde, too. But it makes a nice rainbow. I'll eventually bite the bullet and 6* Darion. Sigmarus first, though.
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Post by vakhir on Jun 9, 2015 2:34:57 GMT -8
The people with those opinions are capable of fielding violent bruisers alongside violent healers that can actually kill during a def break. Defs like Vanessa / Kumar / Chasun / Bella or maybe Vero / Kumar / Chasun / Bella are hideous to hit. 3 healers, first has two def breaks and a rez, second has cleanse and still a def break, Kumar with help from Vanessa or Vero can kill someone under def break, and they're all built tanky and do very well on violent.
Eventually, yes, Lushen (and my AD in general) is terrible. A single Chloe outspeeding me means I can get counterzerged. Sufficiently strong mons would simply tank me. For pushing safely into Conq, the hits just don't happen very often, and I do still sneak wins. Again, though, it feels like most attackers are ones that feel like they have it on lock, like Chloe with DPS. Obviously that is hilariously superior unless my Tyron was over-runed for the Arena tier and outsped Chloe, and she could still have Will runes to prevent that from mattering. Even if I went for that on D, with a Chloe of my own, a laser Chloe means I lose.
I would use Vero (L) / Bella / Briand / Bruiser once you got one, though, maybe, but not until Bella and Briand and the bruiser were all on violent. You want RNG, not just the tanky mons, to help the AI get a kill. Technically Darion can fill that slot, as vio darion can do quite a bit of burst, especially if the break's already up from Bella. My absolute favorite (and they're very popular now because of this) are the beast monks, they are SO good at that role. It's usually a mon with hp-scaling attacks. Vero, Bella, Briand, Chasun, AAs, etc all go for tankiness ANYWAY, but a lot of DPS simply can't fit here because they have to either be tanky or do damage, not both, and if they die, you're in trouble. Briand is so strong in this type of comp because if you decide "well, there are two breaks, and the only mon that can really kill me is Darion", or "Bella breaks, but if Kumar dies, I have no one to worry about", then you focus fire a tanky mon, and Briand rezzes and Bella or Chasun or someone go into protective super-proc mode, spam Violent, and everyone's hp is full again. I'm a bit more scared of teams where Darion is the break but they have another tanky DPS. I would be rightly terrified of Vero(L) / Chasun or Bella / Darion / (bruiser), if I don't yank off break, and Darion always goes before the other bruiser, I could go full to 0 so easily, and Darion can hit anyone unless I bring Vero (who could also get ganked if their speeds are close together). This is why Jubelle got more popular. Base stats aren't the best, but he compensates with the 50% crit reduction, and provoke can help mitigate by cutting off skills. Meanwhile, if he's attracting hits, revenge runes are proccing, and anyone with break on skill 1 is absurd with revenge. Very easy to sneak break on someone and gank them back. I actually love Vio/revenge as runes for both Bella and Darion because of this. Punishes you severely for going after either one first, and people would like to because of def break.
That's for the future. Keep in mind, Megan/Bernard/etc. are dice rolls for defense. That's why I use Chasun. If she DOESN'T buff, then she's holding onto heals and might salvage a run. If she does, then I might surprise someone forgetting I had a buff. If Megan doesn't buff, she's useless. At least Sieq hits like a truck with double bite, crazy multiplier.
Oh, as for your statement about bringing someone (supposedly) to counter that single nuker, that's one of the reasons people love Bella and Darion. Unless you bring a dark tank, the def break goes anywhere and shifts your mons' attentions past, say, the Ermeda that's laughing at your Perna. Suddenly Perna forgets about Ermeda and realizes that Bella exists, and def-broken Bella gets 100-0'd by a violent proc. It's true that Vero will cleanse his own break and Jubelle has crit reduction, but they're still susceptible to vio procs during def break before it's removed. That's also why I think defs with more than 1 threat are better, and why I love the mons that multitask. Vigor's AI sucks, but his kit is a perfect example. Utility skill 1, group beneficial skill 2, burst scaling on hp skill 3. I would consider a team like Vero (L) / Kumar / Darion / Bella 2.5 threats, Vero not hitting as hard as Darion or Kumar but contributing. I would be very hesitant to attack that comp. I could bring Vero and Chasun to focus the def breaks and split Darion and Kumar up (when break is gone), but Kumar has an AE, and Vero would be in real trouble if those 3 all hit me during break. Like, real real trouble.
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