Post by vakhir on Jul 17, 2015 14:40:14 GMT -8
I think it would help people to see other players' decision-making process when determining which mons to bring in GWs. It's harder to put together a safe set of 3 mons while covering all the bases you want (tanking the dangerous elements, def break, cleanse or immunity, healing, enough DPS to realistically kill before violent RNG kills you back, and so on). Whether you're sharing your decisions from the perspective of 'what would you have chosen, maybe I would have chosen better' or 'here's what I did, maybe I approached it in a way you wouldn't have thought of,' it should be helpful.
Of course, you are more familiar with your mons than someone else, so try to provide a smattering of info, like rough stat loadouts (the relevant ones, usually doesn't matter what your Lushen's resist is or your Bella's atk) of your available mons to choose from. Someone seeing a 6* Copper doesn't know if he's runed as a pure tank, a vampire soloer, a yolo rage/blade burst, and so on. They don't know if your Chasun is new and squishy with 20k hp, broken runes, and barely any spd, or well-runed on violent with 35k hp and 180 spd. That obviously influences what you would do. You don't know the enemy runes, but you can provide extra info if available, like "I noticed they had a lot of defense losses early in the week, and then started getting draws, winning their second game every time," which means they were either using a weak defense or the guild was too high and people had no problem with it, and then their second defense is stronger than it appears, or simply the stronger of the two (but very obviously so). Mentioning if any were a 5 star also matters, you may not care about worrying about tanking a 5* when you would if they were a 6.
My last GW:
Fight 1, fighter opponent
Team 1: Ahman(L) Velajuel Lumirecia
Team 2: Tyron(L) Bella Acasis
Fight 2, fighter opponent
Team 1: Verad(L) Acasis Verdehile
Team 2: Veromos(L) Chasun Sigmarus
Fight 3, C2 opponent
Team 1: Veromos(L) Darion Perna
Team 2: Theomars(L) Ariel Delphoi
My available mons (no deaths occurred, so all mons were available for every fight):
Tyron: 23khp 182spd 88%acc not dps runed, Despair/Focus, no skillups
Kaz: 1900atk 68% crit 162% cdmg 120spd, Rage/broken, 10 skillups, max dmg on 3rd and near-max on 2 + his proc
Baretta: 20khp 174spd 86%acc, Despair/Focus, no skillups
Hwa: 15khp 174spd 1400atk 51%crit 140%cdmg 43%acc, Violent/Blade, no skillups
Arnold: 33khp 147spd 800atk 37% crit 77%cdmg 55%acc 48%res Swift/Blade, no skillups (note - these are obviously filler runes I had laying around, but the crit/cdmg are relevant in that case since it's a slight mod to his Deadly Wave, and he's faster than the normal slug speed, decent acc for PVP as well, so you can assume his atk break and hp break will land)
Verdehile: 22khp 210spd 100%crit 93%cdmg 1300atk, Swift/Blade, no skillups
Shannon: 16khp 962def 136spd 90%acc Despair/Focus, max skills
Chasun: 30.5khp 900def 145spd 94% res Swift/Endure, 2/3 maxed
Lushen: 2450atk 81%crit 143%cdmg 133spd Fatal/Blade, max skills (special note - ~13khp but 800 def thanks to bad substats, safer from oneshot or a violent from supports when not def broken)
Ahman: 29khp 140spd 100%crit 76%cdmg 30%acc Swift/Blade, max skills
Veromos: 23khp 182spd 900def 76%acc 43%res Violent/broken, max skills
Copper (lvl 39): 13.4khp 1900def 108spd 39%acc 54%res 61%crit 110%cdmg Rage/Blade, max skills
Bella (lvl 39): 21khp 1071def 175spd 35%res 97%acc Swift/Focus, max skills
Thrain (lvl 32): 13.7khp 370def (oh god) 152spd 90%acc Despair/Focus, max skills
Runed 5-stars:
Konamiya: 16khp 600def 182spd 42%res Swift/Energy, max skills
Bernard: 13.6khp 900def 203spd 44%res 78%acc Swift/Focus, max skills
With those tools available, what would you do? Choose your comps before you see what I chose.
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
Fight 1
Team 1 - Arnold/Chasun/Kaz, Chasun tanks Velajuel (in case he's yolo), Arnold tanks Lumi, Ahman hits anywhere but low risk to choose Kaz + spam violent.
Team 2 - Veromos/Bella/Lushen, Vero draws and cleanses Bella's break and Tyron glancing, Lushen ignored by everyone but Acasis (equal risk hit and Acasis rarely runed as dps plus uses her buff and AE), Bella can remove Acasis buff off kill targets, Lushen strong vs their biggest dps threat and they cannot remove Bella's break, wouldn't need to use specials to kill. Break + a single Lushen/Vero ST attack could be enough, Lushen's ST card crits for 15-18k.
Extra note - if you brought fire DPS instead of Kaz, both Ahman and Lumi have potential to attack them, and Lumi will never attack Chasun even if she was defbroken unless she was super low HP or all wind. Leaves things to chance if both on violent. Cannot bring Veromos to tank Ahman, need Veromos to cleanse Bella's break in 2nd team. Otherwise, Veromos/Chasun/Hwa is safe - Chasun draws Velajuel, Veromos draws Ahman, Lumi hits fire DPS, threat split 3 ways and Lumi has almost no chance to kill Hwa, Hwa doesn't care if she's skill reset.
Fight 2
Team 1 - Verde/Chasun/Hwa, Verde and Hwa equal chance to get hit by Verad but very, very unlikely he will do any dmg, Acasis/Verde both hit Chasun, Kaz replacement for Hwa or Verde shifts group like the 1st team where each opponent has a separate target and none def break, largest risk is Acasis being yolo but unlikely. Since they have no healer, Arnold+Chasun could likely safely duo, could also have played it extra safe and used Ahman/Chasun/Arnold or Ahman/Chasun/Copper, double healer plus tanky 3rd dps vs team with split elements and no def break. Arnold/Chasun + either Kaz/Hwa/Verde would all be viable as well, very flexible responses to this team comp since all will either be low dmg, squishy, or both. Hwa could oneround a non-tank Verde (and could still oneround with a violent without defbreak), Verad can never hit hard or he'll be oneshottable with Extortion and that ruins him for use in ToA, where he'd just want speed, acc and tank stats. This was by far the weakest enemy defense by design, they have basically 0 chance of winning against most comps unless you're using awful runes and don't have 6s, but well-chosen 5s could easily stomp them as well. Teams need at least 1 threat, and none of these mons are the least bit threatening without a defbreak.
Team 2 - Veromos/Bella/Lushen, Vero cleanses atk break and gives Lushen some extra HP padding, good chance to stun, Lushen very, very likely able to oneshot Sig without atk buff, Sig also dies to bella break + a single violent from Vero, or potentially a single crit from Lushen's 1st or 2nd even without defbreak. This was also doable with Copper instead of Lushen, and safer. With different mons used in the first team, while technically possible to do Arnold/Bella/Kaz, it's less safe - Arnold draws Sig's ST, but a very well-runed Sig can easily one-shot Kaz with his AE, not a good idea. When enemy DPS have AEs, you typically need to be anti-element unless you are a tanky DPS, which Kaz is not. If your water DPS happened to be Theomars, this would be much more viable, as you can let Theo die once, so the risk potential of Sig using his AE and critting hard is mitigated, and if Sig can hit that hard, Theo will oneshot with either 1 or 2 and Arnold oneshots with Extortion.
Fight 3
Team 1 - Veromos/Chasun/Hwa, Darion is almost guaranteed to be either revenge or triple revenge, so you can't touch him besides Vero's stomp, and while this is overall good to do, you have to watch Perna's speed and anticipate the possible resist/miss on stomp + a revenge with a successful defbreak when Perna would go before Vero can cleanse. Vero easiest opponent to kill, removes his stomp which, combined with Perna's RNG stun, can be lethal. Perna second target, because again, if you touch Darion with Hwa when he's unstunned, you almost guarantee death (especially if triple revenge) for Hwa if she is ever debuffed by defbreak until Darion is the last one alive. Perna guaranteed violent and Hwa has no defbreak helping her, so almost impossible to kill Darion quickly, and cannot guarantee maintaining a stun on him, so you have to go Vero->Perna->Darion. If Veromos is not able to cleanse his defbreak before Perna goes, swap Perna and smack it to ATB/slow to give Vero time to cleanse it off. It's possible to go Perna first, but you run the real risk of getting killed from lucky Vero violents making him chainstun and hold up Chasun's heal CDs, as long as Vero cleanses defbreak and Chasun isn't stunned she can easily maintain heals.
Team 2 - Ahman/Bella/Lushen, Ahman's provoke exceptional here - can cut off Ariel's healing, stop Delphoi from immunity buffing, or make sure Theomars doesn't go after Lushen, and Lushen almost guaranteed to bottom Theo's HP with one amp. Can strip immunity with Bella to keep provoking Theo to keep him off Lushen. Can defbreak with Bella and jokerbox first turn for the RNG potential, but Lushen's acc is exceptionally low and Ariels tend to have some resist. Jokerbox may or may not oneshot Theo, but Amp will. If Theo goes before Delphoi, he is the safer initial provoke target. If Delphoi is first, provoke her, or she may immunity off the provoke on Theo and you're left with immunity and a Theo that can hit Lushen.
Copper another choice for this (and in retrospect, safer, even if Theo triple-crushed him and got a defbreak that I can't cleanse), either in place of Lushen or together with Lushen. Almost guaranteed to be slowest mon, if Lushen triggers Theo and is somehow faster than him (most Theos run spd in 2, but some will be atk/cd/atk instead), Copper will oneshot after the ward drops even if Theo is fully healed. Theo hitting Copper without defbreak won't hurt him. Copper + Bella likely can still kill Ariel/Delphoi, Lushen/Bella guaranteed to kill them, in case the other DPS died. Worst case, can RNG skill 1 on Copper until it stuns a couple times to set up his burst if necessary. Ahman/Bella also capable of killing them with provoke RNG, but heavily depends on resists for how long it would take.
Extra utility from Bella to sieze off Theo's buff depending on whether it would fall off naturally before one of your mons gets to go. Arnold is a very bad choice here despite the water mons, Theo will not use elements to choose targets and my Arnold doesn't have enough HP (swift/blade and +12 hp runes, 33k isn't a big enough extortion) to likely oneshot, Theo can easily ignore him, running the risk of your Copper or Lushen dying. If I were to do it over, I think I'd have brought Copper/Lushen/Bella or Ahman/Bella/Copper instead, but my Copper's new and I'm not comfortable enough with his limitations.
---
These were not difficult fights except for the Vero/Darion/Perna, but I'll post again with more interesting battles. Whether you get 3 wins or 3 draws, posting your fights here could show what did/didn't work, and may give you (or someone else) ideas about how to more safely/consistently approach fights. The biggest thing you can draw from how I approached these 3, and it's probably the biggest overall concept in PVP, is this - plan out which mons will be hitting what so you know exactly what to expect. Is your DPS safe? No? Don't bring them. Do they have a defbreak? Yes? Can I remove it? Is it safe to wait for cleanse, or should I have immunity?
I'll be leveling my Draco soon, and fighting that Veromos/Darion/Perna would have been a LOT safer with some form of immunity, and is an example of how broadening your toolbox gives you better and better answers to your opponent. I mentioned how potentially scary it is if Perna ever hits Veromos with defbreak, he's likely dead. Darion himself doesn't hit that hard without defbreak, so if he was untanked and allowed to hit anyone, I believe Draco/Hwa/Chasun would be a superior comp to what I brought. Veromos is hitting randomly still, but is the first kill target, Draco has a very consistent immunity (2 turn duration / 4 turn cd with a group ATB) which prevents Darion defbreak -> Perna onerounding someone, and you will kill faster since Draco can Fly Fly when Hwa would be attacking before her target (or Veromos, before he's dead) gets a turn. Because all 3 mons here would be assumed Violent, 1 turn vs 2 turn defbreak is the same thing, it'll get cleansed by Vero or violented out of anyway. Draco maintains an hp leader, and will be Spd/Hp/Acc or Spd/Hp/Hp with acc substats (probably the latter), so he's very low risk under immunity from Veromos or Darion, and you yourself are protected from poor RNG on Veromos violenting into a lot of stomps while the buff is up. If he's on Despair, he provides lucky CC mitigating dmg output, and if he's on Violent, even better chances to keep immunity running.
Of course, you are more familiar with your mons than someone else, so try to provide a smattering of info, like rough stat loadouts (the relevant ones, usually doesn't matter what your Lushen's resist is or your Bella's atk) of your available mons to choose from. Someone seeing a 6* Copper doesn't know if he's runed as a pure tank, a vampire soloer, a yolo rage/blade burst, and so on. They don't know if your Chasun is new and squishy with 20k hp, broken runes, and barely any spd, or well-runed on violent with 35k hp and 180 spd. That obviously influences what you would do. You don't know the enemy runes, but you can provide extra info if available, like "I noticed they had a lot of defense losses early in the week, and then started getting draws, winning their second game every time," which means they were either using a weak defense or the guild was too high and people had no problem with it, and then their second defense is stronger than it appears, or simply the stronger of the two (but very obviously so). Mentioning if any were a 5 star also matters, you may not care about worrying about tanking a 5* when you would if they were a 6.
My last GW:
Fight 1, fighter opponent
Team 1: Ahman(L) Velajuel Lumirecia
Team 2: Tyron(L) Bella Acasis
Fight 2, fighter opponent
Team 1: Verad(L) Acasis Verdehile
Team 2: Veromos(L) Chasun Sigmarus
Fight 3, C2 opponent
Team 1: Veromos(L) Darion Perna
Team 2: Theomars(L) Ariel Delphoi
My available mons (no deaths occurred, so all mons were available for every fight):
Tyron: 23khp 182spd 88%acc not dps runed, Despair/Focus, no skillups
Kaz: 1900atk 68% crit 162% cdmg 120spd, Rage/broken, 10 skillups, max dmg on 3rd and near-max on 2 + his proc
Baretta: 20khp 174spd 86%acc, Despair/Focus, no skillups
Hwa: 15khp 174spd 1400atk 51%crit 140%cdmg 43%acc, Violent/Blade, no skillups
Arnold: 33khp 147spd 800atk 37% crit 77%cdmg 55%acc 48%res Swift/Blade, no skillups (note - these are obviously filler runes I had laying around, but the crit/cdmg are relevant in that case since it's a slight mod to his Deadly Wave, and he's faster than the normal slug speed, decent acc for PVP as well, so you can assume his atk break and hp break will land)
Verdehile: 22khp 210spd 100%crit 93%cdmg 1300atk, Swift/Blade, no skillups
Shannon: 16khp 962def 136spd 90%acc Despair/Focus, max skills
Chasun: 30.5khp 900def 145spd 94% res Swift/Endure, 2/3 maxed
Lushen: 2450atk 81%crit 143%cdmg 133spd Fatal/Blade, max skills (special note - ~13khp but 800 def thanks to bad substats, safer from oneshot or a violent from supports when not def broken)
Ahman: 29khp 140spd 100%crit 76%cdmg 30%acc Swift/Blade, max skills
Veromos: 23khp 182spd 900def 76%acc 43%res Violent/broken, max skills
Copper (lvl 39): 13.4khp 1900def 108spd 39%acc 54%res 61%crit 110%cdmg Rage/Blade, max skills
Bella (lvl 39): 21khp 1071def 175spd 35%res 97%acc Swift/Focus, max skills
Thrain (lvl 32): 13.7khp 370def (oh god) 152spd 90%acc Despair/Focus, max skills
Runed 5-stars:
Konamiya: 16khp 600def 182spd 42%res Swift/Energy, max skills
Bernard: 13.6khp 900def 203spd 44%res 78%acc Swift/Focus, max skills
With those tools available, what would you do? Choose your comps before you see what I chose.
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
Fight 1
Team 1 - Arnold/Chasun/Kaz, Chasun tanks Velajuel (in case he's yolo), Arnold tanks Lumi, Ahman hits anywhere but low risk to choose Kaz + spam violent.
Team 2 - Veromos/Bella/Lushen, Vero draws and cleanses Bella's break and Tyron glancing, Lushen ignored by everyone but Acasis (equal risk hit and Acasis rarely runed as dps plus uses her buff and AE), Bella can remove Acasis buff off kill targets, Lushen strong vs their biggest dps threat and they cannot remove Bella's break, wouldn't need to use specials to kill. Break + a single Lushen/Vero ST attack could be enough, Lushen's ST card crits for 15-18k.
Extra note - if you brought fire DPS instead of Kaz, both Ahman and Lumi have potential to attack them, and Lumi will never attack Chasun even if she was defbroken unless she was super low HP or all wind. Leaves things to chance if both on violent. Cannot bring Veromos to tank Ahman, need Veromos to cleanse Bella's break in 2nd team. Otherwise, Veromos/Chasun/Hwa is safe - Chasun draws Velajuel, Veromos draws Ahman, Lumi hits fire DPS, threat split 3 ways and Lumi has almost no chance to kill Hwa, Hwa doesn't care if she's skill reset.
Fight 2
Team 1 - Verde/Chasun/Hwa, Verde and Hwa equal chance to get hit by Verad but very, very unlikely he will do any dmg, Acasis/Verde both hit Chasun, Kaz replacement for Hwa or Verde shifts group like the 1st team where each opponent has a separate target and none def break, largest risk is Acasis being yolo but unlikely. Since they have no healer, Arnold+Chasun could likely safely duo, could also have played it extra safe and used Ahman/Chasun/Arnold or Ahman/Chasun/Copper, double healer plus tanky 3rd dps vs team with split elements and no def break. Arnold/Chasun + either Kaz/Hwa/Verde would all be viable as well, very flexible responses to this team comp since all will either be low dmg, squishy, or both. Hwa could oneround a non-tank Verde (and could still oneround with a violent without defbreak), Verad can never hit hard or he'll be oneshottable with Extortion and that ruins him for use in ToA, where he'd just want speed, acc and tank stats. This was by far the weakest enemy defense by design, they have basically 0 chance of winning against most comps unless you're using awful runes and don't have 6s, but well-chosen 5s could easily stomp them as well. Teams need at least 1 threat, and none of these mons are the least bit threatening without a defbreak.
Team 2 - Veromos/Bella/Lushen, Vero cleanses atk break and gives Lushen some extra HP padding, good chance to stun, Lushen very, very likely able to oneshot Sig without atk buff, Sig also dies to bella break + a single violent from Vero, or potentially a single crit from Lushen's 1st or 2nd even without defbreak. This was also doable with Copper instead of Lushen, and safer. With different mons used in the first team, while technically possible to do Arnold/Bella/Kaz, it's less safe - Arnold draws Sig's ST, but a very well-runed Sig can easily one-shot Kaz with his AE, not a good idea. When enemy DPS have AEs, you typically need to be anti-element unless you are a tanky DPS, which Kaz is not. If your water DPS happened to be Theomars, this would be much more viable, as you can let Theo die once, so the risk potential of Sig using his AE and critting hard is mitigated, and if Sig can hit that hard, Theo will oneshot with either 1 or 2 and Arnold oneshots with Extortion.
Fight 3
Team 1 - Veromos/Chasun/Hwa, Darion is almost guaranteed to be either revenge or triple revenge, so you can't touch him besides Vero's stomp, and while this is overall good to do, you have to watch Perna's speed and anticipate the possible resist/miss on stomp + a revenge with a successful defbreak when Perna would go before Vero can cleanse. Vero easiest opponent to kill, removes his stomp which, combined with Perna's RNG stun, can be lethal. Perna second target, because again, if you touch Darion with Hwa when he's unstunned, you almost guarantee death (especially if triple revenge) for Hwa if she is ever debuffed by defbreak until Darion is the last one alive. Perna guaranteed violent and Hwa has no defbreak helping her, so almost impossible to kill Darion quickly, and cannot guarantee maintaining a stun on him, so you have to go Vero->Perna->Darion. If Veromos is not able to cleanse his defbreak before Perna goes, swap Perna and smack it to ATB/slow to give Vero time to cleanse it off. It's possible to go Perna first, but you run the real risk of getting killed from lucky Vero violents making him chainstun and hold up Chasun's heal CDs, as long as Vero cleanses defbreak and Chasun isn't stunned she can easily maintain heals.
Team 2 - Ahman/Bella/Lushen, Ahman's provoke exceptional here - can cut off Ariel's healing, stop Delphoi from immunity buffing, or make sure Theomars doesn't go after Lushen, and Lushen almost guaranteed to bottom Theo's HP with one amp. Can strip immunity with Bella to keep provoking Theo to keep him off Lushen. Can defbreak with Bella and jokerbox first turn for the RNG potential, but Lushen's acc is exceptionally low and Ariels tend to have some resist. Jokerbox may or may not oneshot Theo, but Amp will. If Theo goes before Delphoi, he is the safer initial provoke target. If Delphoi is first, provoke her, or she may immunity off the provoke on Theo and you're left with immunity and a Theo that can hit Lushen.
Copper another choice for this (and in retrospect, safer, even if Theo triple-crushed him and got a defbreak that I can't cleanse), either in place of Lushen or together with Lushen. Almost guaranteed to be slowest mon, if Lushen triggers Theo and is somehow faster than him (most Theos run spd in 2, but some will be atk/cd/atk instead), Copper will oneshot after the ward drops even if Theo is fully healed. Theo hitting Copper without defbreak won't hurt him. Copper + Bella likely can still kill Ariel/Delphoi, Lushen/Bella guaranteed to kill them, in case the other DPS died. Worst case, can RNG skill 1 on Copper until it stuns a couple times to set up his burst if necessary. Ahman/Bella also capable of killing them with provoke RNG, but heavily depends on resists for how long it would take.
Extra utility from Bella to sieze off Theo's buff depending on whether it would fall off naturally before one of your mons gets to go. Arnold is a very bad choice here despite the water mons, Theo will not use elements to choose targets and my Arnold doesn't have enough HP (swift/blade and +12 hp runes, 33k isn't a big enough extortion) to likely oneshot, Theo can easily ignore him, running the risk of your Copper or Lushen dying. If I were to do it over, I think I'd have brought Copper/Lushen/Bella or Ahman/Bella/Copper instead, but my Copper's new and I'm not comfortable enough with his limitations.
---
These were not difficult fights except for the Vero/Darion/Perna, but I'll post again with more interesting battles. Whether you get 3 wins or 3 draws, posting your fights here could show what did/didn't work, and may give you (or someone else) ideas about how to more safely/consistently approach fights. The biggest thing you can draw from how I approached these 3, and it's probably the biggest overall concept in PVP, is this - plan out which mons will be hitting what so you know exactly what to expect. Is your DPS safe? No? Don't bring them. Do they have a defbreak? Yes? Can I remove it? Is it safe to wait for cleanse, or should I have immunity?
I'll be leveling my Draco soon, and fighting that Veromos/Darion/Perna would have been a LOT safer with some form of immunity, and is an example of how broadening your toolbox gives you better and better answers to your opponent. I mentioned how potentially scary it is if Perna ever hits Veromos with defbreak, he's likely dead. Darion himself doesn't hit that hard without defbreak, so if he was untanked and allowed to hit anyone, I believe Draco/Hwa/Chasun would be a superior comp to what I brought. Veromos is hitting randomly still, but is the first kill target, Draco has a very consistent immunity (2 turn duration / 4 turn cd with a group ATB) which prevents Darion defbreak -> Perna onerounding someone, and you will kill faster since Draco can Fly Fly when Hwa would be attacking before her target (or Veromos, before he's dead) gets a turn. Because all 3 mons here would be assumed Violent, 1 turn vs 2 turn defbreak is the same thing, it'll get cleansed by Vero or violented out of anyway. Draco maintains an hp leader, and will be Spd/Hp/Acc or Spd/Hp/Hp with acc substats (probably the latter), so he's very low risk under immunity from Veromos or Darion, and you yourself are protected from poor RNG on Veromos violenting into a lot of stomps while the buff is up. If he's on Despair, he provides lucky CC mitigating dmg output, and if he's on Violent, even better chances to keep immunity running.
